tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post6679106050843364713..comments2024-03-28T04:29:32.814-04:00Comments on The Lands of Ara: Who's Getting Screwed by 5e?Carter Soleshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01286436801953647693noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-38953801786127734952012-06-04T09:26:29.885-04:002012-06-04T09:26:29.885-04:00Me too, well said!Me too, well said!Carter Soleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01286436801953647693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-74789253840384257492012-06-04T01:02:30.552-04:002012-06-04T01:02:30.552-04:00I miss the days when a "new edition" of ...I miss the days when a "new edition" of an RPG meant pretty much the same ol' text and tables with some new art.Lumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09490249051095856396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-2030363151743941322012-06-04T00:14:16.425-04:002012-06-04T00:14:16.425-04:00"The days where the Brand alone was enough ar..."The days where the Brand alone was enough are past."<br /><br />WotC has no one to blame but themselves.<br /><br />D&D3 really did reach out not only to 2nd edition players but to those still player other TSR versions and lapsed players: both lapsed as D&D players and lapsed as gamers. Sure, they said 2nd was broken but they addressed things that people often complained about and/or house ruled.<br /><br />Contrast that to D&D4 which was "you're playing a broken game you have to throw away" (WTF, you've been selling it to me for 8 years). The complete divorce seems to be a response to the OGL and the loss of control. Plus, Hasbro didn't like sales so 3.5 came out a couple of years earlier than the original D&D3 play.<br /><br />So, they told a fanbase they had courted a decade earlier to screw off while the OGL allowed the clones (including Pathfinder) to make sure no player of TSR D&D or 3.x ever needed to do business with WotC.<br /><br />In doing so they broke the brand. I own four or five Type IV books: PHB 1&2 (which I bought when playing), DMG and MM (and maybe MM2 might have traded it I'll have to look) which I all bought second hand.<br /><br />I do want to get DMG2 and Manual of the Planes before the line dies, the former for it's advice and the later because I like it.<br /><br />Anyway, back to the broken brand. Now they're telling their new players to piss off to appeal to people for whom they ruined the brand.<br /><br />Hoping the people with dried piss on them will come back to more than fill those leaving because they have wet piss on them isn't very good strategy.Pulp Herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486803457210325703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-26413801787589109022012-06-04T00:08:51.086-04:002012-06-04T00:08:51.086-04:00I concur. Although I only ran Type IV for about s...I concur. Although I only ran Type IV for about six months last year I had multiple character deaths including a TPK.<br /><br />I didn't use the balance too strictly and warned players the world might not scale.Pulp Herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486803457210325703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-20319176813652807402012-06-04T00:07:38.634-04:002012-06-04T00:07:38.634-04:00A big reason D&D3 was successful and reinvigor...A big reason D&D3 was successful and reinvigorated the brand may just be timing.<br /><br />D&D3 came out as I was getting more involved in the hobby after a long break due to marriage. This is a story a lot of D&D3 players will tell you.<br /><br />I very easily might have gone some other way. I actually started to get serious again in 1999 and the first game I bought, Unknown Armies, is still a favorite because it pings a lot of my sweet spots both in gaming and genre.<br /><br />But D&D, well as a Holmes baby I suspect D&D will always have a sweet spot.Pulp Herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486803457210325703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-6918757336865892542012-06-04T00:04:22.324-04:002012-06-04T00:04:22.324-04:00David has it right. It isn't a bad game but i...David has it right. It isn't a bad game but it isn't D&D in the sense of anything prior to it.<br /><br />Once I got that through my head I actually had a good time running and playing Type IV.Pulp Herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486803457210325703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-90388136887851963292012-06-03T18:55:25.354-04:002012-06-03T18:55:25.354-04:00That may end up being the real question.That may end up being the real question.Carter Soleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01286436801953647693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-41102313141523321102012-06-03T18:54:57.994-04:002012-06-03T18:54:57.994-04:00Thanks for the clarification, I am probably a litt...Thanks for the clarification, I am probably a little underhandedly unfair to 4e at times.Carter Soleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01286436801953647693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-42818008804264506732012-06-03T18:54:00.453-04:002012-06-03T18:54:00.453-04:00Two key, truthful bits:
WotC should get "out...Two key, truthful bits:<br /><br />WotC should get "out of the business of creating new systems."<br /><br />and <br /><br />Game continuity is something tangible, the actual game in play, and the brand is intangible. <br /><br />I mean, look at Tunnels and Trolls or Call of Cthulhu, two games that have changed precious little over the years -- also games with extremely loyal fanbases. Perhaps there is a connection.<br /><br />Is WotC's problem that D&D is the "flagship" brand in the hobby so is under intense pressure to treadmill?Carter Soleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01286436801953647693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-17058450319591200812012-06-03T13:50:13.884-04:002012-06-03T13:50:13.884-04:00Perhaps Mike Mearls is getting screwed by 5e. What...Perhaps Mike Mearls is getting screwed by 5e. What happens to him professionally when the brand finally grinds to a halt on his watch?Spawn of Endrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10431848914619887998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-50956499882321355962012-06-03T12:38:25.495-04:002012-06-03T12:38:25.495-04:00In my experience 4th ed can be lethal, If you aban...In my experience 4th ed can be lethal, If you abandon it's Balanced Encounter Algebra, and use good old fashioned random encounters. Fourth's emphasis on tactics, and the oft over looks terrain rules can be pretty brutal to a group that doesn't have their act together, inflated HP or no.<br /><br />5th has me a little nervous however. I'm OK with the healing on resting, but the death rules are a little to forgiving. I'm sincerely hoping that they forgot the word modifier after Constitution.BlUsKrEEmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050270487818381832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-88541174427105489042012-06-03T12:23:43.591-04:002012-06-03T12:23:43.591-04:00Yeah, if you take a step back the whole edition tr...Yeah, if you take a step back the whole edition treadmill idea is a weird thing. It makes me wonder if the idea was based on a bunch of false assumptions. No matter how much I dislike 3e, even I have to admit it revitalized the D&D brand. That and the OGL. But I do wonder if the situation WotC inherited with 2e was due to the mismanagement of a dying TSR rather than any inherent need to re-envision D&D.<br /><br />The edition treadmill is just not a sustainable business model. I mean, if the only real success we can hold up as evidence that it is a good model is 3e, I'm not sure that is true evidence. There are so many variables there and I'm not sure the system revamp is the most important one. That is a long and complicated discussion.<br /><br />That blog post had a great line in it that really resonated with me, basically the idea that WotC should get "out of the business of creating new systems." <br /><br />I think that is really a key issue. How many other products can you think of where the stewards of a brand are constantly trying to reinvent the brand image and then convince customers it is the same product? Sure, there are examples out there. But I think an important difference is that there are so many fantasy games out there that by doing this you really destroy the brand image in a way that cannot be recovered. This has been complicated by the OGL.<br /><br />In the end even if you don't agree with my point of view, I think we all can agree that every new edition splinters the D&D fan base. It is driving people to other brands that maintain game continuity. Game continuity is something tangible, the actual game in play, and the brand is intangible. The brand D&D can't survive all these transitions in the face of competition that is willing to give customers the game they want.Dan of Earthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04957424338566461756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-27232850271555699092012-06-03T11:20:20.148-04:002012-06-03T11:20:20.148-04:00I really don't see the comparison with 3E. Sur...I really don't see the comparison with 3E. Sure, there are DCs, and rolling high on a d20 is always good. The primary underlying system in 3E, however, is built around ascending difficulty classes and increasing bonuses (in an essentially unlimited fashion). 5E, from what we have seen so far (and what they have said) is about flattening the power curve. The essence of the two games seems not only to be different, but to be diametrically opposed.<br /><br />That being said, I agree with the criticism that starting PCs are far too tough for games that I would like to run. Happily, Mearls has stated that HP will likely come down (though it is unclear how self healing might change). More problematic, for me, is lack of support for low level resource play (unlimited light cantrip, unlimited magic missile, etc). I think that is harder to fix than the HP issue, as you can always start PCs with fewer HP and use more punishing death rules (presumably these will be options in the final product).Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-73369670429220599932012-06-03T11:13:02.549-04:002012-06-03T11:13:02.549-04:00That 13th age game looks to be 4e but fixed and mo...That 13th age game looks to be 4e but fixed and modified.Joethelawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00380090049725742287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-69267948714999194192012-06-03T10:39:53.005-04:002012-06-03T10:39:53.005-04:00"maybe Wizards will see fit to release 4e und..."maybe Wizards will see fit to release 4e under an OGL after 5e is released?"<br /><br />That would be interesting, and pretty cool of them. I hope they do.Carter Soleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01286436801953647693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-26446123352004018952012-06-03T10:35:54.675-04:002012-06-03T10:35:54.675-04:00To clarify, I found it horrible to play.To clarify, I found it horrible to play.thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-87580302941311301922012-06-03T10:11:29.091-04:002012-06-03T10:11:29.091-04:00@Kelvin: I am jealous that you are getting to play...@Kelvin: I am jealous that you are getting to play LotFP!<br /><br />@LucidDion: Glad to hear WotC is addressing the needs of 4e players. I don't use "liquid courage" rules myself, though my understanding is that such rules attempt to "associate" a healing surge-type mechanic, that is, to tie the rule to some in-game-world logic that can be roleplayed. See Justin Alexander's discussion of associated vs. dissociated mechanics:<br /><br />http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/17231/roleplaying-games/dissociated-mechanics-a-brief-primerCarter Soleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01286436801953647693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-38616882730504538732012-06-03T10:10:27.569-04:002012-06-03T10:10:27.569-04:004e isn't a horrible game. It's a poor exam...4e isn't a horrible game. It's a poor example of what D&D is generally thought of by those who played *any* prior edition, but the game itself is a good one.<br /><br />Just... different. <br /><br />Any maybe Wizards will see fit to release 4e under an OGL after 5e is released?David The Archmagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649391406526258069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-19485369510726159752012-06-03T09:20:53.325-04:002012-06-03T09:20:53.325-04:004e players will get their love when the optional r...4e players will get their love when the optional rules d&d next tactical module is released for play test, probably in the next update. Also, it's funny to hear complaints about healing surges from the same group who use Liquid Courage rules. Anyway, in many of the d&d next actual play reports I read pcs have bit the dust. I'm cool with making 1st level pcs a little beefier, and I think d&d next is striking a very nice balance so far.LucidDionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11691189006761497558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-62796567642343205632012-06-03T09:10:56.931-04:002012-06-03T09:10:56.931-04:00D&D4 was not released under the OGL as far as ...<i>D&D4</i> was not released under the OGL as far as I recall; it had it's own licence. That said, it could be retro-cloned under the "you can't copyright mechanics" argument, and it may also be possible -- I am not a solicitor -- that it could be cloned under the OGL, even though it wasn't released under it; the latter would depend on if you could build a version of <i>D&D4</i> from <i>D&D3</i>, although that would be a lot of work.<br /><br />You make a good point about feeling sympathy for the <i>D&D4</i> crowd. It's a horrible game, and I'm glad it's going away, but if I had invested time and money in it, I'd be feeling a bit miffed that it's being dropped after only four years.<br /><br />As far as player-character deaths go, in my <i>Lamentations of the Flame Princess</i> game last night, the elf got his head punched clean off by a mutant hillbilly. It was beautiful.thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.com