tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post7102110028891230194..comments2024-03-28T04:29:32.814-04:00Comments on The Lands of Ara: A Dose of Verisimilitude: Fun to Read, Not Fun to PlayCarter Soleshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01286436801953647693noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-76126245819803642152012-09-19T09:22:11.902-04:002012-09-19T09:22:11.902-04:00"Handwaver" was an intentional malapropi..."Handwaver" was an intentional malapropism, if such a thing exists. :)"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-4528690093198767972012-09-18T00:54:43.211-04:002012-09-18T00:54:43.211-04:00As acerbic as I might be, here you are, two years ...As acerbic as I might be, here you are, two years after the blog posts you quote, talking about me.<br /><br />Effect. Yes, effect.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-9025307725716351882012-09-17T05:02:19.635-04:002012-09-17T05:02:19.635-04:00exactly. exactly. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07648499022366444265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-42545753668191789502012-09-16T11:44:36.131-04:002012-09-16T11:44:36.131-04:00Very valuable perspective -- I am a big hand-waver...Very valuable perspective -- I am a big hand-waver myself, and find Tao's blog a bit too acerbic for my taste, but I have always imagined it might be fun to play in his game.Carter Soleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01286436801953647693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-36499335938168334472012-09-16T11:42:37.897-04:002012-09-16T11:42:37.897-04:00Nice point Carl! It may come down to differing DM&...Nice point Carl! It may come down to differing DM'ing styles in the end.Carter Soleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01286436801953647693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-76125825440166699762012-09-16T11:41:25.588-04:002012-09-16T11:41:25.588-04:00Folks who game with me know I am much more of a ha...Folks who game with me know I am much more of a hand-waver (-waiver?) about these kind of matters, much more interested in a fast-paced, exciting game than a grainily realistic one. However, after reading this, I can see I'd best get right to work on a "random calf-birthing table" in case the vellum contingency ever emerges.<br /><br />But seriously, I am with Talysman: "The exact numbers don't matter, only the function or effect matters."Carter Soleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01286436801953647693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-39865498130019753482012-09-13T18:23:09.333-04:002012-09-13T18:23:09.333-04:00"One of my favorite tricks as a DM is to make..."One of my favorite tricks as a DM is to make these moments totally transparent by making the possible outcomes known and then assigning them values on a dice throw that I make the player roll."<br /><br />Yes, that's something that I've increasingly taken to doing - where secrecy doesn't matter, or doesn't matter as much as the fun and sense of risk that comes when a player rolls dice, I like to make the odds of various events transparent and make a player roll. It also removes any temptation to fudge a roll, as well as ensuring the players know that they're in a game governed by rules that the world (and DM) abides by), rather than DM-story-time.<br /><br />If the axle broke without the players knowing that there was a table for 'travel accidents' (I'm not interested in a table simulating the physics of axles, I'd much rather have a fantasy adventure orientated table of 'travel mishaps' or even just plain 'encounters', of which a broken axle is one event), then they might well come to think that the broken axle was a 'scripted' event. I'm trying to purge them from my DMing, as per my aversion to 'DM-story-time'.Andy Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683770320671028815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-80958018890108449402012-09-12T14:31:50.211-04:002012-09-12T14:31:50.211-04:00Lacking some objective and game-able measure, whic...Lacking some objective and game-able measure, which is what I submit Tao is striving for vs. simulationism, you have to be a pretty good hand waver for the results to be enjoyed in the same manner by the same audience. What seems like pedantry when taken apart, discussed and defended in Tao's acerbic style actually plays rather smoothly, even via the truncated medium of the blog.<br /><br />As a player in Tao's game I can attest that we are only inflicted with whatever intricacies exists when we ask for it. Much seems to be determined via his many charts and systems "behind the screen" and only described to us. The result, though, is as deep and satisfying a game as I've ever had the pleasure to play. Perhaps I'm just another pedant, though. <br /><br />On second thought, no. I'm not. I run a much looser game, myself. I do and am satisfied to do way more hand waving and abstraction than Tao.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-32288217421113697902012-09-11T22:49:35.657-04:002012-09-11T22:49:35.657-04:00To address the main point of this post eg player e...To address the main point of this post eg player engagement with the results of a mechanic vs. a DM's knowledge of the potential outcomes determining the amount of fun had by each party when the mechanic is utilized in game (which is a very perceptive distinction to note):<br /><br />The need to keep shit secret from the players is a tricky egg to crack. On the one hand, the players must never know *just how much* of the entire world building balancing act is made up on the spot by the DM, but on the other hand, if the players are not aware of *any or hardly any* of the consequences of their actions on the world around them (and obviously their actions have the most consequence when they shape the world in manners that the DM did not foresee, the true moment of world-building through gameplay...), they miss out on a lot of the fun.<br /><br />Does it matter if the DM is getting his rocks off if the players are not?<br /><br />One of my favorite tricks as a DM is to make these moments totally transparent by making the possible outcomes known and then assigning them values on a dice throw that I make the player roll. If I think it is 75% likely that the player dropped from the jaws of the dragon face down into the mud but there was that 25% chance she flipped midair and landed face up, I ask the player to roll the dice and tell her why.<br /><br />She gets to sweat in the moment, fully aware of the outcome of the rolling dice.<br /><br />I think what I am getting at is I am all in favor of any sort of intricate mechanic like axles breaking and being repaired, or the exact composition of the retinue of church officials of varying rank; as long as the mechanics *are transparent and known to the PCs*. If the PCs don't want to engage, that is fine but they are at least aware of what is happening instead of completely missing out on an orgasmic moment on the other side of the screen :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07648499022366444265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-23399448787172285182012-09-11T22:22:35.946-04:002012-09-11T22:22:35.946-04:00I found myself thinking about this post again whil...I found myself thinking about this post again while I was reading some of Alexis' work at Tao of D&D (I love that blog precisely for the reasons Spawn does not read it any longer - to me, watching intelligent unbridled assholism is a vicarious thrill and if the caustic laser is focused on D&D, so much the better - perhaps I am lucky that I do not encounter enough intelligent assholes in my life to make the thrill wear off). <br /><br />I think the thing that makes most people react against spending a ton of time to create a mechanic to describe some aspect or another of the game, especially if said aspect is outside of the *usual* purview of day to day D&D gameplay, is that most people intuitively realize that if you have the knowledge required to create such a mechanic, you also posses the ability to just synthesize that information and come up with a snap judgment on the fly that will be pretty damn accurate.<br /><br />I bet Alexis (Tao of D&D) can and has improvised many things on the fly in his game, and my hypothesis is these improvised decisions would be very close to the outcomes of his intricate charts and spreadsheets.<br /><br />They both come from the same mad genius, after all.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07648499022366444265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-5587056042061048622012-09-10T13:48:54.900-04:002012-09-10T13:48:54.900-04:00As for the stuff about spreadsheets and precise mo...As for the stuff about spreadsheets and precise models: they remind me of Dave Barry's ancient comment about fantasy baseball being about as sane as claiming to manage herds of pretend caribou.Talysmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162328521343832412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-10437546923204475432012-09-10T13:46:14.494-04:002012-09-10T13:46:14.494-04:00@Kelvin: it's a matter of quantification versu...@Kelvin: it's a matter of quantification versus function. I like what I call "functional realism": the game world should feel like a real world, and anything that could potentially happen in the real world should be possible in the game world. Thus, it's possible for a weapon to break in real life, so there ought to be some weapon breakage in the game as well; it makes stuff more interesting.<br /><br />What doesn't make stuff more interesting is a complicated weapon breakage system that uses precise densities of various metals and their alloys, factoring in technology levels and the effects of different weapon forging processes to come up with exact probabilities. The exact numbers don't matter, only the function or effect matters.Talysmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162328521343832412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-45284216908191319442012-09-10T03:28:29.056-04:002012-09-10T03:28:29.056-04:00There is a decent middle ground, I think. Describi...There is a decent middle ground, I think. Describing the vast wagon trains that follow a powerful cleric seems like a great idea to me; it makes the world seem alive and real and gives the players an idea of the cleric's power without saying "oh, he's level eight". I think you can keep that without going into all the unnecessary detail that bogs down a game and kills all the fun.<br /><br />Or, in other words, a broken cart axle should lead to further adventure; if not, just let the players fix it and move on.thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8038823840472916624.post-35366890609034464172012-09-10T01:21:23.652-04:002012-09-10T01:21:23.652-04:00If I had taken the time to make an awesome Excel c...If I had taken the time to make an awesome Excel chart with formulas to model the differing growth rates of varieties of mustard seeds at elevation in 100' increments cross-indexed with soil quality, I for sure would not keep it to myself. I would have the players roll on the damn thing and make a big production out of it. <br /><br />In fact, whenever I have taken the time to develop a random mechanic for a game I am running, I make sure to share it and as often as possible either have the players roll for it or roll for it myself with everyone fully aware of what I need for a success (for me, usually a terrible outcome for the party) or a failure (for me, usually what the party is hoping for).<br /><br />Why do it any other way?<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07648499022366444265noreply@blogger.com